How do you make a PDF which is notarised or certified?
In other words, how do you prove the document you are sending was scanned and looked like an authentic, undoctored document?
I am thinking there might also be some sort of repository where the site that posts these documents certifies they examined the originals before scanning?
I know people who send proposals in pdf because they can't be modified. Is that still true? I have PDFs you are not allowed to print.
- = - Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htmhttp://www.facebook.com/vasjpan2 ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}--- [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards] [Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:47:17 +0000, vjp2.at ci disse:
> I know people who send proposals in pdf because they can't be modified.
[...] This is true only for people ignoring the nature of pdf format, for all other people knowing this nature, this is false and in fact it is not true that a pdfcan't be modified
> I have PDFs you are not allowed to print.
[...] Ho no, you have some pdfs you think can't be printed but removing restriction of any kind it is a play for people mastering pdf bases; if you have documents and you want they can't be reused or modified, you may do this by including in your pdfs a statement that does not allows any further redistribution or modify, so, any can modify privately your pdf, but not for public use
if you want certify your pdf you can submit it and use a free service like
On Mar 9, 4:47 pm, vjp2...@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
> How do you make a PDF which is notarised or certified?
Don't Know what You're Trying For here, But THE FIRST Thing you do, For ALL Your .pdf needs is Get a Copy of Adobe *ACROBAT*...
You Might Try Going To adobe.com and looking to see if they Still Have a DownLoad "Trial" Copy of ACROBAT 9.0? 9.5? 10.0 By Now?
As To "Notarized" or "Certified", MY Acrobat 6.0 Pro has a "Save As Certified Document" Function [Which I've NEVER Had Need To Use]... and a "Digital Signatures" *Multi-Tool* Menu...
> In other words, how do you prove the document you are sending was > scanned and looked like an authentic, undoctored document?
IF and WHEN One needs to "prove authenticity", that's done in a Courtroom...
> I am thinking there might also be some sort of repository where the site > that posts these documents certifies they examined the originals > before scanning?
[SHRUG]
> I know people who send proposals in pdf because they can't be modified. > Is that still true?
No... BTW... That NEVER WAS True...
> I have PDFs you are not allowed to print.
Sez WHO? *I* have a Program that will Let Me EDIT ANY .pdf I Please To Edit...
> How do you make a PDF which is notarised or certified?
> In other words, how do you prove the document you are sending was > scanned and looked like an authentic, undoctored document?
> I am thinking there might also be some sort of repository where the site > that posts these documents certifies they examined the originals > before scanning?
> I know people who send proposals in pdf because they can't be modified. > Is that still true? I have PDFs you are not allowed to print.
Your question is too confused to answer directly. All I can do is give you some information which you can relate to the questions you would have asked if you knew what the questions were.
Notarizing is a process by which a Notary Public stamps and signs a document to certify that the person who signed the document swore that it was true, or acknowledged signing the document. That process can be use to create evidence that a document is authentic, but the process can be forged. I don't think notarization is what you meant.
It is easy to make a document that is certified. That doesn't mean that it is difficult to alter the certified document, creating a forgery.
.pdf format documents are created by a process that allows the author to decide whether the document can be printed, copied, modified or exported. But the process can be circumvented fairly easily. All Adobe is trying to do is allow the user to create a document that cannot be printed simply by clicking "File, Print, Print." They don't say or imply that they have made forgery impossible.
There are some tricks that will go a long way toward protecting you, the author, against forgery. I use digital signatures in my work. While in the pdf document being created, the author signs the document by adding the author's unique digital signature to the document. That can only be done by someone who has the password. The result on the page looks like a handwritten signature except for a note indicating that the signature is authentic and the document has not been altered. That note changes if the pdf document or a copy of it is altered in any way. That works because the note itself is an active device, not just a picture of a note. If there is any alteration to the document, the authenticity note changes somehow. Maybe the message changes or the color changes or a red X is superimposed or whatever. This procedure has two functions: authentication of the document and confirmation that the signature was placed there by the person with the password. But this procedure does not prevent copying. It only exposes alteration.
I haven't explored the idea, but there should be online document comparison services, where you can upload a document and then later, a recipient of the original or a copy can go to that online service and get a comparison between their copy and the uploaded version, to prove that their copy is unaltered. If there is no such service, you and I should start one. We'll be rich in a month or two.
> <vjp2...@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com> wrote in message > news:hn6mm5$m32$5@reader1.panix.com... >> How do you make a PDF which is notarised or certified?
>> In other words, how do you prove the document you are sending was >> scanned and looked like an authentic, undoctored document?
>> I am thinking there might also be some sort of repository where the >> site that posts these documents certifies they examined the originals >> before scanning?
>> I know people who send proposals in pdf because they can't be >> modified. Is that still true? I have PDFs you are not allowed to >> print.
> Your question is too confused to answer directly. All I can do is > give you some information which you can relate to the questions you > would have asked if you knew what the questions were.
> Notarizing is a process by which a Notary Public stamps and signs a > document to certify that the person who signed the document swore that > it was true, or acknowledged signing the document.
I don't think this is quite right. The notary stamps and signs a document to certify that the person who is signing is who he purports to be.
> That process can > be use to create evidence that a document is authentic, but the > process can be forged.
This process actually does create evidence that the signature is authentic. The notary cannot provide any evidence as to the validity of the document itself.
You may want to try something like DocQ.com. Once your scanned document is uploaded it is sent via SSL to the recipient. The recipient has to click a link to read on the DocQ server. You can set rights on whether they can print the PDF, download, etc. in rereading what you said - you should use the DocQ digital signature tool to digitally sign the document. If the document is tampered with it will invalidate the PDF and is nearly impossible to thwart digital signature technology.
>> Notarizing is a process by which a Notary Public stamps and >> signs a document to certify that the person who signed the >> document swore that it was true, or acknowledged signing the >> document.
> I don't think this is quite right. The notary stamps and signs a > document to certify that the person who is signing is who he > purports to be.
What "McGyver" said above is quite right. "Deadrat" would not have contended otherwise if he had read carefully; for he refers to only one of the basically two different functions most commonly asked of a notary public whereas "McGyver" referred separately ("... ,or ...") to both -- namely, i) as a person authorized by law to administer oaths, to attest that the maker/signer of an affidavit swore under penalty of perjury to the truth of facts as stated therein (e.g., "sworn to [as true] before me this [date], s/ Notary Public, etc."), or ii) as a person authorized by law to do so, to attest that a person who signed whatever is the document at issue was known to the notary to be that person and acknowledged to the notary that s/he executed it (s/k/a, taking an "acknowledgement" - a formalism required of numerous different kinds of law-significant documents such as being a generally required predicate for the recording of a deed conveying or other writing creating an interest in real property).
By reason of some combination of statutory or rule-provided law and custom/practice in some parts of the country, the first of these functions is not as widely used as in the past. E.g., various federal and state laws now treat many statements of asserted fact with the same effect as an affidavit even if not sworn to as true before a notary; and in lawsuits in state and federal courts in Calif. and in some other states, use of a "declaration" of facts if explicitly stated under penalty of perjury is now accorded the same effect as an affidavit, although, in contrast, in N.Y., f'r'instance, only certain classes of persons (e.g., licensed attorneys and physicians) may make an "affirmation" under penalty of perjury that will be given such effect.
>> That process can be use to create evidence that >> a document is authentic, but the process can be >> forged.
> This process actually does create evidence that the signature > is authentic. The notary cannot provide any evidence as to the > validity of the document itself.
It is not clear what "Deadrat" is attempting to say by his last sentence above in light of the fact that in numerous litigated contested documents cases a notary public's testimony is offered and accepted to establish the validity of a disputed document.
(Incidently, one implication if perhaps not outright statement of "McGyver" that may not be quite right is that a .PDF file created with the sort of encryption to which he evidently referred is basically forgery-proof. While, undoubtedly, such electronically created documents can be that, at least in the in the, "It's close enough for folk music!" sense [cf., Pete Seeger trying accurately to tune his 5-string banjo] including, too, for most functional including law-related purposes, the on-going war between those attempting to create techniques for preventing and detecting forgeries and those who, for fun or profit, attempt to outsmart and out-do the former are [necessarily] on-going.)
>>> Notarizing is a process by which a Notary Public stamps and >>> signs a document to certify that the person who signed the >>> document swore that it was true, or acknowledged signing the >>> document.
>> I don't think this is quite right. The notary stamps and signs a >> document to certify that the person who is signing is who he >> purports to be.
> What "McGyver" said above is quite right. "Deadrat" would not have > contended otherwise if he had read carefully;
<snip/>
As usual, Deadrat can't seem to get through any post of yours without getting lost halfway through the verbiage. So please forgive Deadrat for the snippage which leaves a correct statement. He, in fact, didn't read carefully enough. If the document is phrased as a declaration of purported fact, then the person signing it by the very act of signing, attests to the truth of the declaration. And the notary records the event of the signing by the signer.
And, you're right, McGyver says nothing to the contrary.
Sorry.
>>> That process can be use to create evidence that >>> a document is authentic, but the process can be >>> forged.
>> This process actually does create evidence that the signature >> is authentic. The notary cannot provide any evidence as to the >> validity of the document itself.
> It is not clear what "Deadrat" is attempting to say by his last > sentence above in light of the fact that in numerous litigated > contested documents cases a notary public's testimony is offered and > accepted to establish the validity of a disputed document.
If by a dispute about the "validity of a disputed document," you mean a dispute about whether the affixed signature was made by the person the signature represents, then sure.
Suppose Dr. X has his signature notarized on a document that states that he was present at the death of his patient Mr. Y. The notary can testify that the document is valid, i.e., that Dr. X signed it. The notary cannot testify as to the truth of the document's contents, e.g, whether Mr. Y is dead or alive, or if the former, whether Dr. X actually attended at the deathbed or not.
> Even some alternative PDF readers that are freeware/shareware > will open up some of those stupid restrictions.
> Does anybody in either newsgroup have a list of > such programs, and maybe format converters > to convert to/from PDF format?
I don't have a list. I used a converter that worked fairly well, until I discovered the wonders of Adobe Acrobat 9 Pro. That program quickly and easily converts pdf documents to virtually anything. If you can't bear the indignity of paying for a program, you always have the option of scanning a printed version into Word (or into something that converts to Word).
But none of that overcomes the fact that a digital signature will be gone or the associated certification blurb will be changed in some way in the copy.
>How do you make a PDF which is notarised or certified?
>In other words, how do you prove the document you are sending was >scanned and looked like an authentic, undoctored document?
I know of no definition of "looked like an authentic, undoctored document". Nor does it need to be virus-free. Notaries do not require one.
It is possible to digitally sign a document. (The signature may become part of the document or it may be separate). With the use of public-key cryptography, only someone who knows the private key associated with the certificate can *make* a signature with that certificate, but anyone can *verify* the signature. It is possible to break the cryptography but it takes a LOT of computer effort and time. Or you steal the private key, which may be a lot easier.
A signature contains a hash of the document, so if anyone alters it, it will likely have a different hash, and you can spot the change. Cryptographic hashes are supposed to have the property that it is very, very difficult to find two documents with the same hash. The signature also protects against changes to the hash to match the hash of an altered document.
A digital signature gives some assurance that the document is the same as the one that was signed. That doesn't prevent someone from signing a digital photograph of Jesus Christ, the Easter Bunny, some living dinosaurs, Abraham Lincoln, and Adolph Hitler dining together with a calendar for the year 3030 in it. The signer may be saying "I created this work of art", not that it depicts anything realistic.
You appear before a notary and represent that you are signing a document. The notary will demand identification and then assert that it was you who appeared and signed the document at this date and time. It is not necessary for the notary to read the document nor assert that anything within the document is accurate.
The digital equivalent may involve an independent party publishing the fact that (identity) signed a document with (this hash) at this (date and time).
>I know people who send proposals in pdf because they can't be modified.
I know people who think politicians can't be bribed.
>Is that still true?
It never was.
>I have PDFs you are not allowed to print.
That was true only before the invention of printers.
PDF restrictions such as being allowed to view, but not print, or not being allowed to modify them are a futile attempt at Digital Restrictions Management, which is pretty much a joke. The program has the information (including encryption key, if needed) to print it if it has the information to display it. It just refuses. A suitable patch to the program will permit printing. (Note that there are open-source PDF viewers, which should make removing such restrictions easier). It requires a little more effort than an extra mouse-click.
You *can* print such a document, even if you have to resort to taking a (maybe analog) photograph of the document on the screen, scanning them, and printing copies.
On the other hand, not being able to print *or* view a document without a password may mean the document is encrypted, and that the program really can't decrypt it without the correct password (or brute-forcing it, which may take a lot of time).
Modifying a document will break the digital signature (but you could remove it anyway). If it has no digital signature, you will be able to make a copy of it (the original might be on a read-only medium) and make changes to the copy (but not necessarily using unpatched software). Even if it has a digital signature, someone might not notice that the signature is broken.
|
